A Wrest Coast Perspective

by Frank Darbe
Stepin-Init

Stepin-init is an Oklahomaism for the action that intentionally opens a enormous and contentions can of worms. It is short, of course, for “stepping in a pile of shit,” not by accident or inattention, but on purpose. It is the California Equivalent of walking into a Biker Bar and asking “Who owns that bunch of Pussy Motor bikes out front that I just backed over.” It is the same as walking into a Christian Republican Convention wearing a “N.A.M.B.L.A. for Hillary T-Shirt.” I am Stepin-Init because I am asking of those here if Israel just committed a crime against humanity, a war crime.

This question came to mind when I read Juan Cole’s “Informed Comment” on Sunday and learned that Israel cut of fuel to Gaza’s only power plant. (Read “Hamas leader asks for Gaza Strip help”). What this does is cut all electricity to every person in the Gaza Strip. Juan Cole is of the opinion that Israel has violated the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, concerning collective punishment. Juan Cole certainly is not a simple minded and uninformed zealot. But so that we are all on the same page, I will quote the convention from Wikipedia.

quote:

Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World Wars I and II. In the First World War, Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity. In World War II, Nazis carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that took place there. The conventions, to counter this, reiterated the principle of individual responsibility. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Commentary to the conventions states that parties to a conflict often would resort to "intimidatory measures to terrorize the population" in hopes of preventing hostile acts, but such practices "strike at guilty and innocent alike. They are opposed to all principles based on humanity and justice."

Additional Protocol II of 1977 explicitly forbids collective punishment. . . '

To be entirely clear, there are eleven million people in the Gaza Strip. Israel does not claim that the entire population, including women, children, and the elderly, are involved in the crimes committed by Hamas or the Hamas government. Never-the-less they have but power to the entire eleven million people. The Gaza is still a are strictly controlled by Israel, even if it is no longer occupied. The people are not free to go. They are not free, as a nation, to pursue their own trade polices. Food and services must go through Israel. This is not, as I see it, a question of war where war is made against an entire nation and the requirements are merely to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. (I am willing to accept this argument if you can convince me that Israel is legally at war.)

Israel, of course, is not murdering entire villages as the Nazi’s did in WWII. What they are doing is punishing the entire population for the actions of their government. The question I ask myself, is collective punishment only applicable when you begin lining innocent villagers against the wall and blowing their brains out. If this is not collective punishment, where is the cut off? Finally, if the roles were reversed and the Palestinians had 18 million Jews locked up in a narrow region of land and cut of their power because the Irgun was firing missiles and Palestinian cities, would the Palestinians actions be considered collective punishment of all Jews.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Darbe,

Frank, so many questions? so many opinions?

Initially I thought it was clever of Israel to cut the power BECAUSE IT WAS IN RETALIATION for hostility against Israel. Now after reading your discussion, I no longer know what to think.

I'm betting this will generate a lot of conversation

I did love the reference to NAMBLA for Hillary. I am a daily watcher of A DAILEY SHOW. Jon Stewart in solidarity with the writers' strike has changed the name of his program from THE DAILEY SHOW TO A DAILEY SHOW.

Jon will throw in the acronym NAMBLA whenever and where it can fit. It is a running joke because most people don't stop to think what acronyms really mean.

So while your essay is very thought provoking, it also gave me a small chuckle.

Kathy

I had to think hard before I wrote and posted this piece. I haven't fully formed my opinion. If I am consistent with my belief in law, then literally, Israel has committed collective punishment. But, the degree is different in that they have not committed the mass murders or the forced labor that others have done.

In some way its a question of where to draw the line. Is it bad for our enemies to do it but OK for our side to do it because our motives are pure? That sounds like justifying a crime to me, but my mind isn't made up here, though I lean to condemning Israel because I would certainly condemn the Palestinians if they committed such an act.

Last night, Palestinians blew down a large section of the wall between the Gaza and Egypt. They are streaming into Egypt...to buy food, medical supplies, water, fuel, and the other necessities that we in America and Israeli's in Israel take for granted. This raises another question; Why is Israel systematically starving the Palestinian people?

This is not Hamas they are hurting. They are refusing food, medical supplies, and energy to women and children. This is what has been done to Jews, and now they are passing on. Israel is walking down the same road that the Germans, the Spanish, the Russians, and just about every other nation has walked. They are becoming the monsters. They are becoming the Inquisitors, the Nazis.

Their actions leave me feeling dirty, and its not a dirt I can simply wash off.

quote:

Palestinians blow up border wall
Nidal al-Mughrabi, Reuters
Published: Wednesday, January 23, 2008
RAFAH, Gaza -- Palestinian militants blew up part of the wall between Gaza and Egypt on Wednesday, and tens of thousands of Palestinians poured into Egypt to stock up on food and fuel in short supply due to an Israeli blockade.


Residents of the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah said a group of militants, including members of Hamas, set off a series of explosions overnight, demolishing about 200 meters of the border wall. Hamas denied involvement.


Tens of thousands of Palestinians thronged into Egyptian territory, some on donkey carts and carrying luggage to bring consumer goods and fuel back into the Hamas-run territory.


"I have bought everything I need for the house for months. I have bought food, cigarettes and even two gallons of diesel for my car," said Mohammed Saeed, who was pushing a trolley.


Egyptian riot police sent to reinforce the border mainly stood aside and let the Palestinians through, witnesses said.

Good for them. Now, bring the rest of that abomination down.

quote:

Originally posted by Darbe:

quote:

Palestinians blow up border wall
Nidal al-Mughrabi, Reuters
Published: Wednesday, January 23, 2008
RAFAH, Gaza -- Palestinian militants blew up part of the wall between Gaza and Egypt on Wednesday, and tens of thousands of Palestinians poured into Egypt to stock up on food and fuel in short supply due to an Israeli blockade.


Residents of the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah said a group of militants, including members of Hamas, set off a series of explosions overnight, demolishing about 200 meters of the border wall. Hamas denied involvement.


Tens of thousands of Palestinians thronged into Egyptian territory, some on donkey carts and carrying luggage to bring consumer goods and fuel back into the Hamas-run territory.


"I have bought everything I need for the house for months. I have bought food, cigarettes and even two gallons of diesel for my car," said Mohammed Saeed, who was pushing a trolley.


Egyptian riot police sent to reinforce the border mainly stood aside and let the Palestinians through, witnesses said.

Good for them. Now, bring the rest of that abomination down.

Amen to that Frank.

I also applaud the Egyptian riot police that just stood by and watched as these people did what they had to do to save lives.

My only question is why did the Palestinian that was quoted need to get cigarettes? If my family was starving, I seriously doubt that smokes would be high on my list of things to acquire. Particularly if I had to pass in front of hostile forces to do so. Might be time to quit, don't you think?
GP

I knew 2 different guys in 'Nam that literally died for a cigarette. My stepfather smokes and feeding his habit is one of his consuming passions.

They may have used that quote becasue they want to spin the story so that the readers think that Palastinians are not that despearte. I watched and read several stories and the desperation of the Palastinians is real.

Maybe I'm being a bit dense today, but I may be about to stepin it myself. Here are some thoughts on my perspective.

Saying that the Palestinian people are innocents in this situation is like saying that Ma Barker wasn't as guilty as her kids because she never actually robbed a bank. They voted Hamas into power in Gaza. There are many more civilians then there are Hamas fighters. Isn't there anyone there that can figure out what to do? Get rid of Hamas, and the Israeli's will help you.
GP

GP, I have said that I'm very conflicted on this issue so don't think that I'm steppin on'ya; but we could turn the same thing around because we "elected" George W. Bush.

Kathy

quote:

Originally posted by Kathy Albers:
GP, I have said that I'm very conflicted on this issue so don't think that I'm steppin on'ya; but we could turn the same thing around because we "elected" George W. Bush.

Kathy

I agree... and we are suffering the consequences of that vote... aren't we?
GP

quote:

(I am willing to accept this argument if you can convince me that Israel is legally at war.)

When every Arab nation removes from their laws the call for the destruction of the state of Israel then Israel will be at peace. Read this from the Hamas Covenant the constituion of the Hamas government that "rules" the Gaza Strip.
The Hamas Covenant

quote:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Senator, you are right; many Arab nations do harbor hate for Israel. Your argument, however is flawed and isn't relevant.

Even if Israel were in a state of war with all its neighbors, and it is not, even countries at war are not allowed to commit war crimes and atrocities. Collective punishment under international law and the Geneva Convention is an atrocity and a war crime. Other signatories of the Geneva Convention and the UN are duty pound to punish those who commit war crimes. Israel has no right to do it under any circumstances, not even war. Nobody does. Committing an atrocity is morally, ethically, and legally wrong. What Hamas has done does not give Israel the right to commit a war crime just as being poor doesn't give a man the right to steel from anyone.

And finally, this thread is not about middle east peace or the lack there of. It is about Israels flagrant and obvious flouting of international law.

quote:

Saying that the Palestinian people are innocents in this situation is like saying that Ma Barker wasn't as guilty as her kids because she never actually robbed a bank. They voted Hamas into power in Gaza. There are many more civilians then there are Hamas fighters. Isn't there anyone there that can figure out what to do? Get rid of Hamas, and the Israeli's will help you.
GP

Electing Hamas to a place in their government does not give Israel the right to collectively punish everyone in the territories. Israel certainly has the right to respond to attacks by Hamas, as they have done. More than a few of the Hamas leadership have been killed by missile fire on the streets of the Gaza. Israel is exercising its rights in attack individuals connected to Hamas, even if they are elected members of the government. But exacting a form of punishment on every man woman woman and child has put Israel in the boots of the Nazi's and everyone that did the same thing to the Jews. Collective punishment is a crime under both International and US Law. Any country committing that crime is punishable under International and US Law.

There is right and there is wrong. No one has raised and argument showing me that Israel is right in what they are doing to the general Palestinian population. So far I haven't seen a single argument that what they are doing isn't collective punishment as defined in the Geneva Convention and International law. If it's collective punnishment, it's criminal.

quote:

Electing Hamas to a place in their government does not give Israel the right to collectively punish everyone in the territories.

I don't think that was the point either GP or I were making. ....more of the Ma Barker suffered for her participation in the shoot-en-ups she encouraged her sons to execute.

There is no "good" war, nor is there ever a "bad" peace.

Kathy

I appologize for misuderstanding the post.